In article <Qi%Ua.43024$wk4.15682@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, "cindys"
<cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote:

>SNIP<

> >But, I guess things go far deeper
> > than that. If you are not in an Ultra Orthdox person's universe, you
> > are a stranger and will always be a stranger, since their lives center
> > around praying and celebrating Jewish holidays.
>
> Why is it your belief that UO Jews adopting a more secular lifestyle in lieu
> of a torah lifestyle is a good thing?
>

This is a remarkable leap from the words the man actually typed. I take his
words to be an (accurate) observation; yours are an interesting defensive
reaction of imputing meaning that is not there.

>
> > If you are Jewish you
> > will at least be able to talk about these things, but if you a non-Jew
> > you will be lost in conversation and since so many things are taboo to
> > talk about, there is nothing to talk about.
>
> And? Would you suggest that UO Jews should maybe take in a few popular
> films, watch a little TV, broaden their horizons so they are in a better
> position to socialize with non-Jews? And in the process, take on the tumah
> (impurity) of secular values in the secular world? This seems like a
> negative thing to me.

Again, not really reading what he wrote. Nowhere does he suggest any such
thing.

>SNIP<
>
> Bells and whistles. UO Jews do not want themselves or their children to be
> influenced by other people's secular values. Why is this such a problem for
> you?
>

In some instances, it seems to go far beyond the innocent desire to protect
themselves from others values. For example, I have had some UO turn and walk
away from me when I attempted to ask for directions. Frankly, I find it hard
to believe that telling me how to get to the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge can
pose any serious threat of "influencing" anyone's values--unless, of course,
one of those values is to not help strangers in any way.

I think the problem the original poster is refering to boils down to the
rather intense negative greeting "outsiders" get from some UO. While I think
it would be unreasonable to expect an open-armed welcome, open hostility is
equally unreasonable. (And may, in a certain context, amount to casting
Judaism in a bad light. Chillul Hashem?)

>SNIP<
> Where is it written that socializing with people outside that universe, i.e.
> with a different value system is a good thing?

Socializing? Perhaps not. Treating people "outside that universe" poorly
can't possibly be a good thing for either an individual community or Judaism
as a whole.

>
> Why would non-Jews want to live in a UO community to begin with?

Again, making a leap to what's not there. The context of the post seems to
indicate pretty clearly that VISIT is the operative term, not MOVE IN.

John Likakis

> Best regards,
> ---Cindy S.

"John Likakis" <blurunnr@sover.net> wrote in message
news:bg21c0$2dq$1@falcon.steinthal.us...
> In article <Qi%Ua.43024$wk4.15682@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, "cindys"
> <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >SNIP<
>
> > >But, I guess things go far deeper
> > > than that. If you are not in an Ultra Orthdox person's universe, you
> > > are a stranger and will always be a stranger, since their lives center
> > > around praying and celebrating Jewish holidays.
> >
> > Why is it your belief that UO Jews adopting a more secular lifestyle in
lieu
> > of a torah lifestyle is a good thing?
> >
>
> This is a remarkable leap from the words the man actually typed. I take
his
> words to be an (accurate) observation; yours are an interesting defensive
> reaction of imputing meaning that is not there.

Did you read all the posts in this thread? The original complaint was that
UO Jews are not interested in socializing with Christians. Next, there were
observations that UO Jews shun secular newspapers, TV, radio, secular forms
of entertainment. Now, the poster is observing that the reason anyone who
isn't a UO Jew will be a stranger in the UO universe is that the UO lack any
interests outside of of praying and celebrating Jewish holidays. I don't
think this was such a leap.

>
> >
> > > If you are Jewish you
> > > will at least be able to talk about these things, but if you a non-Jew
> > > you will be lost in conversation and since so many things are taboo to
> > > talk about, there is nothing to talk about.
> >
> > And? Would you suggest that UO Jews should maybe take in a few popular
> > films, watch a little TV, broaden their horizons so they are in a better
> > position to socialize with non-Jews? And in the process, take on the
tumah
> > (impurity) of secular values in the secular world? This seems like a
> > negative thing to me.
>
> Again, not really reading what he wrote. Nowhere does he suggest any such
> thing.

Yes, it is implied in his other posts in this thread. He insists there is
nothing wrong with watching television, for example.

>
> >SNIP<
> >
> > Bells and whistles. UO Jews do not want themselves or their children to
be
> > influenced by other people's secular values. Why is this such a problem
for
> > you?
> >
>
> In some instances, it seems to go far beyond the innocent desire to
protect
> themselves from others values. For example, I have had some UO turn and
walk
> away from me when I attempted to ask for directions.

Now, you're taking the leap. No one was talking about anything like this.
The thread is about why the UO shun secular forms of entertainment, dress
differently, and avoid socializing with non-Jews.


>Frankly, I find it hard
> to believe that telling me how to get to the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge
can
> pose any serious threat of "influencing" anyone's values--unless, of
course,
> one of those values is to not help strangers in any way.
>
> I think the problem the original poster is refering to boils down to the
> rather intense negative greeting "outsiders" get from some UO.

No, he was specifically talking about socializing, wishing he could help the
UO to appreciate the diversity of the secular world, and bemoaning the fact
that UO did not wish to socialize with Christians.


>While I think
> it would be unreasonable to expect an open-armed welcome, open hostility
is
> equally unreasonable. (And may, in a certain context, amount to casting
> Judaism in a bad light. Chillul Hashem?)

And again, this was not the topic of this thread. The O.P. was complaining
about the lack of open-armed welcome and desire to socialize. Nowhere did he
mention open hostility.
>
> >SNIP<
> > Where is it written that socializing with people outside that universe,
i.e.
> > with a different value system is a good thing?
>
> Socializing? Perhaps not. Treating people "outside that universe" poorly
> can't possibly be a good thing for either an individual community or
Judaism
> as a whole.

Not the topic of the thread.
>
> >
> > Why would non-Jews want to live in a UO community to begin with?
>
> Again, making a leap to what's not there.

The statement read:

"Solution - don't bring nonJews into their communities. It is a sad
> solution, but probably the only thing one can do.
> I meant bringing one or two people into their communities, not 20 people"
:-)


>The context of the post seems to
> indicate pretty clearly that VISIT is the operative term, not MOVE IN.
>

It wasn't clear to me. I understood this to be a reference to non-Jews
moving into the communities. But I will grant you that perhaps I
misunderstood, and he was referring only to a visit. Nevertheless, I do not
think I missed the mark at all with my comments regarding the rest of the
thread.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

"John Likakis" <blurunnr@sover.net> wrote in message
news:bg21c0$2dq$1@falcon.steinthal.us...
> In article <Qi%Ua.43024$wk4.15682@twister.nyroc.rr.com>, "cindys"
> <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >SNIP<
>
> > >But, I guess things go far deeper
> > > than that. If you are not in an Ultra Orthdox person's universe, you
> > > are a stranger and will always be a stranger, since their lives center
> > > around praying and celebrating Jewish holidays.
> >
> > Why is it your belief that UO Jews adopting a more secular lifestyle in
lieu
> > of a torah lifestyle is a good thing?
> >
>
> This is a remarkable leap from the words the man actually typed. I take
his
> words to be an (accurate) observation; yours are an interesting defensive
> reaction of imputing meaning that is not there.

Did you read all the posts in this thread? The original complaint was that
UO Jews are not interested in socializing with Christians. Next, there were
observations that UO Jews shun secular newspapers, TV, radio, secular forms
of entertainment. Now, the poster is observing that the reason anyone who
isn't a UO Jew will be a stranger in the UO universe is that the UO lack any
interests outside of of praying and celebrating Jewish holidays. I don't
think this was such a leap.

>
> >
> > > If you are Jewish you
> > > will at least be able to talk about these things, but if you a non-Jew
> > > you will be lost in conversation and since so many things are taboo to
> > > talk about, there is nothing to talk about.
> >
> > And? Would you suggest that UO Jews should maybe take in a few popular
> > films, watch a little TV, broaden their horizons so they are in a better
> > position to socialize with non-Jews? And in the process, take on the
tumah
> > (impurity) of secular values in the secular world? This seems like a
> > negative thing to me.
>
> Again, not really reading what he wrote. Nowhere does he suggest any such
> thing.

Yes, it is implied in his other posts in this thread. He insists there is
nothing wrong with watching television, for example.

>
> >SNIP<
> >
> > Bells and whistles. UO Jews do not want themselves or their children to
be
> > influenced by other people's secular values. Why is this such a problem
for
> > you?
> >
>
> In some instances, it seems to go far beyond the innocent desire to
protect
> themselves from others values. For example, I have had some UO turn and
walk
> away from me when I attempted to ask for directions.

Now, you're taking the leap. No one was talking about anything like this.
The thread is about why the UO shun secular forms of entertainment, dress
differently, and avoid socializing with non-Jews.


>Frankly, I find it hard
> to believe that telling me how to get to the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge
can
> pose any serious threat of "influencing" anyone's values--unless, of
course,
> one of those values is to not help strangers in any way.
>
> I think the problem the original poster is refering to boils down to the
> rather intense negative greeting "outsiders" get from some UO.

No, he was specifically talking about socializing, wishing he could help the
UO to appreciate the diversity of the secular world, and bemoaning the fact
that UO did not wish to socialize with Christians.


>While I think
> it would be unreasonable to expect an open-armed welcome, open hostility
is
> equally unreasonable. (And may, in a certain context, amount to casting
> Judaism in a bad light. Chillul Hashem?)

And again, this was not the topic of this thread. The O.P. was complaining
about the lack of open-armed welcome and desire to socialize. Nowhere did he
mention open hostility.
>
> >SNIP<
> > Where is it written that socializing with people outside that universe,
i.e.
> > with a different value system is a good thing?
>
> Socializing? Perhaps not. Treating people "outside that universe" poorly
> can't possibly be a good thing for either an individual community or
Judaism
> as a whole.

Not the topic of the thread.
>
> >
> > Why would non-Jews want to live in a UO community to begin with?
>
> Again, making a leap to what's not there.

The statement read:

"Solution - don't bring nonJews into their communities. It is a sad
> solution, but probably the only thing one can do.
> I meant bringing one or two people into their communities, not 20 people"
:-)


>The context of the post seems to
> indicate pretty clearly that VISIT is the operative term, not MOVE IN.
>

It wasn't clear to me. I understood this to be a reference to non-Jews
moving into the communities. But I will grant you that perhaps I
misunderstood, and he was referring only to a visit. Nevertheless, I do not
think I missed the mark at all with my comments regarding the rest of the
thread.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

"B. Tkatch" <SPAMBLOCK.Maxwell_Smart@ThePentagon.com.SPAMBLOCK > wrote in
message news:fh49ivgfj1csvhtsqhpp0ma2cekdj50t41@4ax.com...
> >In some instances, it seems to go far beyond the innocent desire to
protect
> >themselves from others values. For example, I have had some UO turn and
walk
> >away from me when I attempted to ask for directions.
>
> Huh? That sounds strange. Care to give a fuller explanation?
>
> >Frankly, I find it hard to believe that telling me how to get to the foot
of the
> >Brooklyn Bridge can pose any serious threat of "influencing" anyone's
> >values--unless, of course, one of those values is to not help strangers
in any way.
>
> Well, we are taught that we should greet everyone with a happy face.
> Giving directions would fit in very well. It is odd that someone would
> not give directions to someone else because they weren't orthodox. So
> much so, that i cannot bring myself to believe that to be true.
>

I can see the thought process go from , "I can't have those people in my
home," to "I shouldn't spend too much time with them" to "I should avoid
conversation with them." I'm sure most Orthodox Jews don't think that way,
but it's not unreasonable to think some do. In fact, a friend of mine has a
horrible impression of Orthodox Jews because of just this attitude among the
ones who spend the summer in the town where she lives. So much so that she
thinks it's noteworthy when an Orthodox Jew is nice to her. (To be precise,
they gave that impression of Chassidic Jews, rather than Orthodox, but
that's irrelevant here. I did explain to her that there are lots of
Chassidic sects and this one isn't representative of them all, but she's
always going to have the negative impression about the ones around her.)

> >> Why would non-Jews want to live in a UO community to begin with?
> >
> >Again, making a leap to what's not there. The context of the post seems
to
> >indicate pretty clearly that VISIT is the operative term, not MOVE IN.
>
> OK, why would they want to visit?
>

Good stores and restaurants in the community?

"B. Tkatch" <SPAMBLOCK.Maxwell_Smart@ThePentagon.com.SPAMBLOCK > wrote in
message news:fh49ivgfj1csvhtsqhpp0ma2cekdj50t41@4ax.com...
> >In some instances, it seems to go far beyond the innocent desire to
protect
> >themselves from others values. For example, I have had some UO turn and
walk
> >away from me when I attempted to ask for directions.
>
> Huh? That sounds strange. Care to give a fuller explanation?
>
> >Frankly, I find it hard to believe that telling me how to get to the foot
of the
> >Brooklyn Bridge can pose any serious threat of "influencing" anyone's
> >values--unless, of course, one of those values is to not help strangers
in any way.
>
> Well, we are taught that we should greet everyone with a happy face.
> Giving directions would fit in very well. It is odd that someone would
> not give directions to someone else because they weren't orthodox. So
> much so, that i cannot bring myself to believe that to be true.
>

I can see the thought process go from , "I can't have those people in my
home," to "I shouldn't spend too much time with them" to "I should avoid
conversation with them." I'm sure most Orthodox Jews don't think that way,
but it's not unreasonable to think some do. In fact, a friend of mine has a
horrible impression of Orthodox Jews because of just this attitude among the
ones who spend the summer in the town where she lives. So much so that she
thinks it's noteworthy when an Orthodox Jew is nice to her. (To be precise,
they gave that impression of Chassidic Jews, rather than Orthodox, but
that's irrelevant here. I did explain to her that there are lots of
Chassidic sects and this one isn't representative of them all, but she's
always going to have the negative impression about the ones around her.)

> >> Why would non-Jews want to live in a UO community to begin with?
> >
> >Again, making a leap to what's not there. The context of the post seems
to
> >indicate pretty clearly that VISIT is the operative term, not MOVE IN.
>
> OK, why would they want to visit?
>

Good stores and restaurants in the community?

>I can see the thought process go from , "I can't have those people in my
>home," to "I shouldn't spend too much time with them" to "I should avoid
>conversation with them."

It could, if the reasons are not given. But, the people who don't want
them to hang out in their house, know the reasons, and would not let
it get that far.

> I'm sure most Orthodox Jews don't think that way, but it's not unreasonable to
>think some do.

Well, then just chalk it up to xenophobia. That is not restricted to
any one sect or religion.

> In fact, a friend of mine has a horrible impression of Orthodox Jews because
>of just this attitude among the ones who spend the summer in the town where
>she lives. So much so that she thinks it's noteworthy when an Orthodox Jew
>is nice to her.

Are the other one's are not nice to her, or do they just not strike up
a conversation?

Case in point. I was working at a company, with the possibility of
getting hired. They hired someone else, because i wasn't "engaging".
Ostensibly, some person said hello to me and didn't hear me answer
back.

Of course, since i work in the back room with the computers, and i am
somewhat xenophobic, i don't want anyone to bother me, but i always
answers a hello to some extent. Yet, i didn't get the job anyway. In
the end, it's not what i did or did not do, it was what the other
person wanted.

If this lady has such an impression of the people, i should like to
hear why. Perhap we can hear it and come to a better understanding of
her issues.

>> OK, why would they want to visit?
>
>Good stores and restaurants in the community?
>

But those stores and restaraunts were started *because* it was a
secluded community. Who does the person think they are that they
should have the audacity to barge in where others want to be alone?

B.

>I can see the thought process go from , "I can't have those people in my
>home," to "I shouldn't spend too much time with them" to "I should avoid
>conversation with them."

It could, if the reasons are not given. But, the people who don't want
them to hang out in their house, know the reasons, and would not let
it get that far.

> I'm sure most Orthodox Jews don't think that way, but it's not unreasonable to
>think some do.

Well, then just chalk it up to xenophobia. That is not restricted to
any one sect or religion.

> In fact, a friend of mine has a horrible impression of Orthodox Jews because
>of just this attitude among the ones who spend the summer in the town where
>she lives. So much so that she thinks it's noteworthy when an Orthodox Jew
>is nice to her.

Are the other one's are not nice to her, or do they just not strike up
a conversation?

Case in point. I was working at a company, with the possibility of
getting hired. They hired someone else, because i wasn't "engaging".
Ostensibly, some person said hello to me and didn't hear me answer
back.

Of course, since i work in the back room with the computers, and i am
somewhat xenophobic, i don't want anyone to bother me, but i always
answers a hello to some extent. Yet, i didn't get the job anyway. In
the end, it's not what i did or did not do, it was what the other
person wanted.

If this lady has such an impression of the people, i should like to
hear why. Perhap we can hear it and come to a better understanding of
her issues.

>> OK, why would they want to visit?
>
>Good stores and restaurants in the community?
>

But those stores and restaraunts were started *because* it was a
secluded community. Who does the person think they are that they
should have the audacity to barge in where others want to be alone?

B.

"B. Tkatch" <SPAMBLOCK.Maxwell_Smart@ThePentagon.com.SPAMBLOCK > wrote in
message news:icd9ivksvns6fgmn7l3f4i854qi2p7sois@4ax.com...
> >I can see the thought process go from , "I can't have those people in my
> >home," to "I shouldn't spend too much time with them" to "I should avoid
> >conversation with them."
>
> It could, if the reasons are not given. But, the people who don't want
> them to hang out in their house, know the reasons, and would not let
> it get that far.
>

You have an extremely optimistic view of human intelligence. Can you
honestly say that you're positive that all O Jews have a full understanding
of why they do what they do, have the self-control not to let it go too far,
AND have no xenophobic beliefs that they would use this to justify?

> > I'm sure most Orthodox Jews don't think that way, but it's not
unreasonable to
> >think some do.
>
> Well, then just chalk it up to xenophobia. That is not restricted to
> any one sect or religion.
>

I never said it was. A Christian who had the same attitude would get the
same response from me. That doesn't make it ok in either case.



> > In fact, a friend of mine has a horrible impression of Orthodox Jews
because
> >of just this attitude among the ones who spend the summer in the town
where
> >she lives. So much so that she thinks it's noteworthy when an Orthodox
Jew
> >is nice to her.
>
> Are the other one's are not nice to her, or do they just not strike up
> a conversation?
>

Not nice to her.

> Case in point. I was working at a company, with the possibility of
> getting hired. They hired someone else, because i wasn't "engaging".
> Ostensibly, some person said hello to me and didn't hear me answer
> back.
>
> Of course, since i work in the back room with the computers, and i am
> somewhat xenophobic, i don't want anyone to bother me, but i always
> answers a hello to some extent. Yet, i didn't get the job anyway. In
> the end, it's not what i did or did not do, it was what the other
> person wanted.
>

Hiring is always like that. If they don't think you'll fit in, they hire
someone who they think will.


> If this lady has such an impression of the people, i should like to
> hear why. Perhap we can hear it and come to a better understanding of
> her issues.
>

She doesn't read this newsgroup, though, and I wouldn't really be
comfortable asking her and having a conversation about it without her being
present. She did say something about the men staring at her chest.


> >> OK, why would they want to visit?
> >
> >Good stores and restaurants in the community?
> >
>
> But those stores and restaraunts were started *because* it was a
> secluded community. Who does the person think they are that they
> should have the audacity to barge in where others want to be alone?
>

Then you think that the Jews who visit my friends community over the summer
should keep away because they don't fit in with that community either?
Personally, I'm glad they're there because it means that if I ever visit her
I can get kosher food.

As for "barging in where others want to be alone," there's a difference
between stores and restaraunts on one hand and private homes on the other.
Saying that shopping or eating in a restaraunt is "audiacity," is pretty
xenophobic and I'd say at least on step two of the process I mentioned in
the first paragraph above.

"B. Tkatch" <SPAMBLOCK.Maxwell_Smart@ThePentagon.com.SPAMBLOCK > wrote in
message news:icd9ivksvns6fgmn7l3f4i854qi2p7sois@4ax.com...
> >I can see the thought process go from , "I can't have those people in my
> >home," to "I shouldn't spend too much time with them" to "I should avoid
> >conversation with them."
>
> It could, if the reasons are not given. But, the people who don't want
> them to hang out in their house, know the reasons, and would not let
> it get that far.
>

You have an extremely optimistic view of human intelligence. Can you
honestly say that you're positive that all O Jews have a full understanding
of why they do what they do, have the self-control not to let it go too far,
AND have no xenophobic beliefs that they would use this to justify?

> > I'm sure most Orthodox Jews don't think that way, but it's not
unreasonable to
> >think some do.
>
> Well, then just chalk it up to xenophobia. That is not restricted to
> any one sect or religion.
>

I never said it was. A Christian who had the same attitude would get the
same response from me. That doesn't make it ok in either case.



> > In fact, a friend of mine has a horrible impression of Orthodox Jews
because
> >of just this attitude among the ones who spend the summer in the town
where
> >she lives. So much so that she thinks it's noteworthy when an Orthodox
Jew
> >is nice to her.
>
> Are the other one's are not nice to her, or do they just not strike up
> a conversation?
>

Not nice to her.

> Case in point. I was working at a company, with the possibility of
> getting hired. They hired someone else, because i wasn't "engaging".
> Ostensibly, some person said hello to me and didn't hear me answer
> back.
>
> Of course, since i work in the back room with the computers, and i am
> somewhat xenophobic, i don't want anyone to bother me, but i always
> answers a hello to some extent. Yet, i didn't get the job anyway. In
> the end, it's not what i did or did not do, it was what the other
> person wanted.
>

Hiring is always like that. If they don't think you'll fit in, they hire
someone who they think will.


> If this lady has such an impression of the people, i should like to
> hear why. Perhap we can hear it and come to a better understanding of
> her issues.
>

She doesn't read this newsgroup, though, and I wouldn't really be
comfortable asking her and having a conversation about it without her being
present. She did say something about the men staring at her chest.


> >> OK, why would they want to visit?
> >
> >Good stores and restaurants in the community?
> >
>
> But those stores and restaraunts were started *because* it was a
> secluded community. Who does the person think they are that they
> should have the audacity to barge in where others want to be alone?
>

Then you think that the Jews who visit my friends community over the summer
should keep away because they don't fit in with that community either?
Personally, I'm glad they're there because it means that if I ever visit her
I can get kosher food.

As for "barging in where others want to be alone," there's a difference
between stores and restaraunts on one hand and private homes on the other.
Saying that shopping or eating in a restaraunt is "audiacity," is pretty
xenophobic and I'd say at least on step two of the process I mentioned in
the first paragraph above.

>> It could, if the reasons are not given. But, the people who don't want
>> them to hang out in their house, know the reasons, and would not let
>> it get that far.
>>
>
>You have an extremely optimistic view of human intelligence. Can you
>honestly say that you're positive that all O Jews have a full understanding
>of why they do what they do, have the self-control not to let it go too far,
>AND have no xenophobic beliefs that they would use this to justify?

Specifically, the people who do not want them to hang out in their
house, know why.

The only way i could imagine your example happening, was if they took
it as a rule with no reason, that avoidance is required. The people
who follow the rule, however, know that there is a reason, know what
the reason is, and follow it only where required.

If not allowing people into the home is merely a psycological
reaction, it will not go from one stage to the other, unless the
person is suffering from avoidance behavior, which is not relevant to
this discussion.

>> > I'm sure most Orthodox Jews don't think that way, but it's not
>> >unreasonable to think some do.
>>
>> Well, then just chalk it up to xenophobia. That is not restricted to
>> any one sect or religion.
>>
>
>I never said it was. A Christian who had the same attitude would get the
>same response from me.

Good. As long as we're in agreement.

> That doesn't make it ok in either case.

Why not? Is it "wrong" to be xenophobic? I am perfectly happy with
mine.

>> Are the other one's are not nice to her, or do they just not strike up
>> a conversation?
>
>Not nice to her.

Example please. Assuming you mean an "active" not nice, what is that?

>> Case in point. I was working at a company, with the possibility of
>> getting hired. They hired someone else, because i wasn't "engaging".
>> Ostensibly, some person said hello to me and didn't hear me answer
>> back.
>>
>> Of course, since i work in the back room with the computers, and i am
>> somewhat xenophobic, i don't want anyone to bother me, but i always
>> answers a hello to some extent. Yet, i didn't get the job anyway. In
>> the end, it's not what i did or did not do, it was what the other
>> person wanted.
>>
>
>Hiring is always like that. If they don't think you'll fit in, they hire
>someone who they think will.

That is not the point. The point is that it had not much to do with
what i did, as much as what the other person wanted. The relevance
here is that your friend may be *expecting* something, and because she
didn't get that, she considers them unkind. When, in essence, they may
be very curtious.

I don't know what the case is. I am merely giving an example to show
that what people feel is not enough to go on, without knowing the
circumstances as well.

>> If this lady has such an impression of the people, i should like to
>> hear why. Perhap we can hear it and come to a better understanding of
>> her issues.
>>
>
>She doesn't read this newsgroup, though, and I wouldn't really be
>comfortable asking her and having a conversation about it without her being
>present.

OK, so then her evidence is inadmissible because it cannot be
cross-examined. Perhaps yiou have other examples?

>She did say something about the men staring at her chest.

Points to ponder.

1) Were they really looking, or did she just imagine it?
2) Does she dress modestly, or do her clothes show off her chest?
3) Assuming they did look, did they look more than anyone else?

On top of that, it would need to be explained how "looking" is
considered being "not nice".

At another job one lady didn't like me (because i wouldn't shake her
hand) and she assumed that i kept staring at a picture of hers when
talking to her, where she was showing off her chest. In reality, i
was trying not to look at her directlly, because i didn't want to
look down her shirt, or make her uncomfortable by staring in her face.
She saw what she *wanted* to see and considered it unkind, whereas
from anyone else she would have considered it a compliment.

You must establish that she dressed modestly, that they were actually
looking, and that they stared for longer than average people look.
Then we can talk about how that is considered not "being nice".

>> But those stores and restaraunts were started *because* it was a
>> secluded community. Who does the person think they are that they
>> should have the audacity to barge in where others want to be alone?
>>
>
>Then you think that the Jews who visit my friends community over the summer
>should keep away because they don't fit in with that community either?

No. I thought the community we were talking about was a secluded
community in Israel. Perhaps i crossed conversations.

>As for "barging in where others want to be alone," there's a difference
>between stores and restaraunts on one hand and private homes on the other.

Not in a secluded community. If that is not the case, you are correct.

B.